"Thievery" of uploads.

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jfgslo

Member
Mar 11, 2009
364
4
This is a situation which I'd like to discuss with the community of A-O.

There was recently an incident regarding a contributor who had a single thread for his uploads. Another user "stole" his uploads and posted them individually. This is a complicated situation. Said "thief" actually downloaded the files from the other user's thread and then uploaded them to his host, one of those hosts that paid for downloads. Now, it probably wouldn't have been an incident if the second user repackaged the files or changed the images from the description, but he didn't even bother to change the images, files and the password from the original contributor. This of course made quite clear how many of the files this user "stole". Most of his posts consists of said "stolen" files. The original contributor took notice of that and decided to close his thread and post them individually to avoid more "thievery". After all, all his hard work was being "stolen" by someone else.

The thing is that making mirrors of such files is not actually a negative thing, is it?. Mirrors are always appreciated. But what this second user did was to take all the material from that thread in order to gain some benefit for himself. My question is: Should this kind of action be punished at A-O? What about link "stealing", taking a link from other user and post it without giving proper credit?

I know that other forums have some rules to that effect, but A-O does not. And there is a reason for that. Although hard working contributors are always appreciated, we certainly aren't the copyright holders of the material we post. A-O is a community that tries to share this material for the joy of it, not to gain some profit out of it. But it certainly seems unfair to me that some users just take the hard work of others without even telling the original contributors of said actions.

Personally, I welcome such link "stealing" as long as they don't make people pay for them. In fact, I encourage everyone to share what I post with whoever they want, be it by taking my links or making mirrors. I don't need to be credited and my permission is not needed. After all, what we try to do is to share our favorite series with the rest of the world because we want them to be able to enjoy them also. However, I do think that what the second user did in that incident was cheap. He could have at least put his own password and not merely post the same images to illustrate the material. Some contributors certainly put a lot of effort to share the material with everyone and it seems unfair that they see their efforts siphoned with no other purpose than some personal gain.

Personally, I'm in favor of giving some kind of punishment for that action, but at the same time, I don't where to draw the line. I don't want to make mirror-making a discouraged activity and I certainly don't care much for mirror stealing. What does the community of A-O think?
 

EnterTheVoid

Member
Jan 13, 2007
395
13
Let me guess... the Hentai Manga and Doujin Direct Download Forum is one such forum?

I have noticed quite a few downloads seem to be re-posted multiple times after they are first posted. It seems to be getting pretty bad lately.

I have no problems with stuff in the torrent section getting posted as a direct download (and visa versa), but when I see the same manga title posted 3-4 times within the space of a few days I don't see the point (like the Comic LO and RIN reposts). If a download link dies, yeah, a repost is very appreciated (but best in the original thread).

But do we need to sort through 3-4 identical posts every few days? It seems to be too much to be accidentally not seeing a duplicate post and as you said, it seems some were direct download/reuploads without even changing the original archive to disguise what they were doing.

Common courtesy would seem to be to avoid posting something that has already been posted (especially recently), especially if you're just downloading someone else's file and reuploading it to somewhere you can make money off of.

May need a rule for this.
 

Sakunyuusha

New Member
Jan 27, 2008
1,855
3
Anyone who partakes in internet piracy has zero right to complain about file mirroring.

That's my stance summed up pretty succinctly. In more detail...
[hide]You're saying that Guy #1 posted them to Akiba-Online first, and then Guy #2 downloaded them from Guy #1 and later re-posted them in a thread of his own. This made Guy #1 really upset.

First of all, who the hell do you think Guy #1 got it from!? Duh: some other "Guy #1" on a different website, where our Guy #1 is their Guy #2.

Second of all, the only way that isn't true is if Guy #1 was the one to purchase the magazine or comic, scan it himself, and distribute it online. But if this is the case, then he has even LESS of a leg to stand on! He's now the king of pirates! He's the individual solely responsible for introducing someone else's hard work (writing, drawing, editing) to millions of potential customers around the world free of charge. He is the root cause of thousands, if not tens of thousands, of lost dollars in profit. So who the fuck does he think he is, so self-important, to then go around and say, "Well I put in 5 hours' worth of hard work to get these and scan them. >( And I had to pay $100 to purchase it and import it! So people should respect that! >(" What the fuck? Talk about supreme arrogance. How many hours do you think the original guy put in? Five? More like five hundred, you big egotist. How much money do you think he had to drop on this project, from ink and paper to publishing fees and lawyer fees (assuming he's a big player with a publishing house), etc? He paid a hell of a lot more than you did, let me tell you.

The only person who gets to complain about internet piracy is the guy who uploads his own creation to the internet free of charge. He and he alone.


Second of all, you're absolutely right: mirrors are of great benefit to hentai pirates the world over. The more mirrors there are, the less likely that the community loses access to a particular comic when any one source is taken down. I don't think a single one of us can honestly claim that there hasn't been a time where we haven't clicked on multiple DDL links or multiple torrents in search of the one source which was still alive. Seriously: how many times have you tried to find a story, saw that it had a link on RapidShare, clicked that link, got an Error message, and then said to yourself, "Well, shucks! I guess my search ends here, then!" I'm guessing none. Everybody keeps looking. And the only reason there's any point in that is thanks to the fact that files exist in n-plicate online.


Third of all, and this is a major pet peeve of mine, ... just because you were the first one to upload it doesn't suddenly grant you ownership rights over it! Uploaders of pirated material have zero authority to say to others, "Do as I say because I'm your god." They have every right to say "Do as I say or else I'll fuck you guys over by not uploading stuff anymore," but that's not the same thing as saying "you have to give in to my demands because [insert bullshit moral imperative reason]." The fact of the matter is that the only weapon a file uploader has with which to scare his leechers into obedience is the weapon of cessation (i.e. quitting uploading stuff). Beyond that, he's completely powerless.


To all the uploaders out there reading this: don't take this post the wrong way. I personally am grateful for your efforts, and so are the millions upon millions of other fans online. All I'm saying is, it's bad of an uploader to think he is entitled to a monopoly on files he uploads. He is entitled to no such monopoly whatsoever.[/hide]

Btw, the word is theft, not "thievery."
 

Sakunyuusha

New Member
Jan 27, 2008
1,855
3
The argument here arose because two different people posted two different links to the exact same copy of data in the exact same subforum. If you're sympathetic towards the first uploader (i.e. the one who is complaining about theft), then please consider the following:

[hide]First, let's look at some similar hypothetical examples to what actually took place. Remember! These don't reflect exactly what happened, but consider the similarities.

(a) Guy #1 posted an RS link in Hentai Manga DDLs, Guy #2 took that data and created a torrent with it and posted a .torrent attachment in Hentai Manga Torrents

(b) Guy #1 posted an RS link in Hentai Manga DDLs, Guy #2 took that data and created an MU version since not everyone likes RS

(c) Guy #1 posted an RS link in Hentai Manga DDLs, Guy #2 took that data and created a duplicate RS upload and posted the link to the duplicate in (i) his own thread or (ii) Guy #1's thread

(d) Guy #1 posted an RS link in Hentai Manga DDLs, Guy #2 took that data and created his own upload somewhere else. As in, not on Akiba-Online. As in, maybe on HongFire? Maybe on 4chan? Maybe on a private weblog? Maybe he burned the data to an optical disc or uploaded it to a Flash drive and lent it to his buddies?


There's just no way you can take Guy #1's complaint seriously. Not unless he either (1) is the guy who created the comic in the first place; or else (2) he's the guy who first ripped it, first provided TL notes, etc. (whatever the fuck it may be) --and yet-- Guy #2 is being a prick and trying to take credit for it by specifically saying, "I DID IT! It was all me! I did this for you guys. ;D Don't all worship me all at once, 'kay?"

So long as Guy #2 isn't being a douche like that, Guy #1 has no argument. Remember: like I said before, just because you're the one that first ripped it doesn't make you the God of that particular parcel of data. You're moreso a pirate than anyone else who downloads the file from you. You're the guy who told the original copyright holder to that work, "Fuck you, bitch!" And that means you have zero argument against other people throwing it right back at you over the exact same stolen property.

Also! Even if Guy #2 is being a douche -- even if he is trying to steal credit for ripping / translating / [whatever] Guy #1 did -- it still doesn't mean I think Guy #1 should walk out of this the winner. I'm just saying that I agree that he has an argument, a leg (if you will) on which to stand. He's still out of his fucking mind if he thinks he can upload something to the Internet -- something he stole from somebody else himself!! -- and expect other people to do as he tells them to and to not steal his work. [cue rolling of the eyes][/cue][/hide]
 

illuminatus3

Akiba Citizen
Oct 9, 2007
2,321
9,066
You should be happy if all you had to deal with was 2 duplicate posts. Come to the IV download or JAV subforums, and see 5-10+ duplicate posts. I don't have a problem with people posting to so many diverse upload sites, just want to see some simple courtesy.

If you upload a new release from a torrent, thank the uploader. If you upload to a different upload site from a DD made here, thank the uploader. If you can't be bothered to create your own links, and insist on posting a .txt file of someone else's links to another upload site, thank the uploader (weirdest posting instance I saw in the IV download). Why? Why not? Showing gratitude for anything shared takes less than a minute of your time. And, the uploader will continue to share. How difficult is this? :battered::battered:

Cheers.
 

Ceewan

Famished
Jul 23, 2008
9,152
17,033
I can't see any solution that doesn't require a lot of work on the mods part.

It would seem conceivable however to require mirrors and/or reposts to be confined to the original thread. As this would save an immense amount of storage space and possibly even improve data access time this might be an idea that may have some merit. I don't know if the idea would be considered implementable or not by chompy and crew.

Just an idea I thought worth sharing.
 

Sakunyuusha

New Member
Jan 27, 2008
1,855
3
Personally, I'd love it if there was only one thread per JAV, anime episode, manga volume, etc. and inside of this thread you could find all of the links at the top of the first page. But you're absolutely right that it's unimplementable without being a major and never-ending chore for the mods.
 

ryuuga

みうみうの恋人
Super Moderator
Apr 2, 2007
3,009
161
"Duplicate" is the first thing that would definitely happen when you have DAMN TOO MANY people in 1 forum.

I guess the only solution that would work for this is:

close the forum and start a new forum from all over again with the new/old content, and with the new rule: Post all the same material in the same thread.

Of course, that's impossible. Seeing that A-O already grown to this stage, there's no way we could give up on it and restart from the zero.
 

Ceewan

Famished
Jul 23, 2008
9,152
17,033
"Duplicate" is the first thing that would definitely happen when you have DAMN TOO MANY people in 1 forum.

I guess the only solution that would work for this is:

close the forum and start a new forum from all over again with the new/old content, and with the new rule: Post all the same material in the same thread.

Of course, that's impossible. Seeing that A-O already grown to this stage, there's no way we could give up on it and restart from the zero.

Given that this solution was suggested by you I hope it is not inappropriate to add a thought or two on it.

It would seem possible to close the old sub-forum or sub-forums to new posts and comments and start a new forum under the new rules. The old posts would still be accessible to members and future duplicate posts could be prevented. Perhaps even condensing of the "old sub-forum" or sub-forums could be done at leisure,(if this is wished at all). It sounds like a solid idea that you had ryuuga IMO, mayhaps you might make it work afterall. It may be possible that your idea is more doable than it appeared on the surface.

P.S.
So in rereading this I realized that I was confusing the terms forum and sub-forum. I wasn't talking about shutting down A-O merely closing all threads in one section of A-O and opening a new section for new posts using new rules. Sorry for any misunderstanding.
 

Syobon

(´・ω・`)
Dec 22, 2009
222
0
This kind of complaining remember me some fansubs that don't like their material distributed without their authorization as if adding subtitles give you the copyright right, lol, as a new user I must agree that disposal of same content in the same thread like said by ryuuga would make things easier like search for working link or better hosts.
 
Jul 1, 2009
225
10
Anyone who partakes in internet piracy has zero right to complain about file mirroring.

I agree. This sort of complaining involves a very large amount of hypocrisy. The trivial amount of time you took to take some screen caps and upload the file is nothing compared to the effort spent by whoever actually created the movie in the first place.

Your effort is to be respected, yet their (much larger) effort is not? :yell:

If you don't want people to do whatever they please with a file, don't put it on the Internet. :attention:

I don't see any sense in "intellectual property", let alone "intellectual property I didn't create yet pretend to own".
 

guy

(;Θ_Θ)ゝ”
Feb 11, 2007
2,079
43
This kind of complaining remember me some fansubs that don't like their material distributed without their authorization
Well, not all fansubs are that uncanny about their "warning" messages. Most subbers ask that their subs not be altered when redistributed, in an effort to preserve the original translation quality (in case someone wants to mess up the translations, make the sub group look foolish, etc). Likewise, some people could make the same argument about distributing other content (scans, movies, etc): restricting the files to the original source helps guarantee the best quality, especially when it comes to JPGs which are all too often recompressed many times over.

But as said before, complaining about an exact copy being distributed elsewhere is unnecessary. If being recognized is so important, the uploader could simply include a "original uploader" credit in a text file in the zip/torrent/whatever.
 

tenchi20

Exclusive Uploader
May 28, 2007
14,990
13,051
i have this problem with this user: tomek092, makes spam of my posts, this usuary copy exactly everything (pics, data) and returns to post again, the difference is that download the file and upload it again on the same host but with my password :eek:mg:, this is an example:

http://www.akiba-online.com/forum/showthread.php?t=210312


this is my post (see post # 4):

http://www.akiba-online.com/forum/showthread.php?t=208845

I sent him several messages but no response, many (in other forums) think it is a bot and it is tiring me Y_Y.
 

Syobon

(´・ω・`)
Dec 22, 2009
222
0
How is he making spam if he is posting the same as you, i'm not defending he but why you think he is uploading, I think is the same reason as you :cool:
 

Sakunyuusha

New Member
Jan 27, 2008
1,855
3
If a bot is cloning all of your posts verbatim, regardless of file uploads, then I think it is a legitimate concern and I would hope that the staff agrees and helps you out.

But this doesn't appear to be the case. The post that he wrote is very similar but also clearly different from the one you wrote. The fact that the password is the same for both files only means one thing: he decided to upload your .rar instead of re-encrypting it on his end and giving it a new password. Not a big deal. This happens a lot. Many, many times a passworded .rar exchanges hands until it finally winds up somewhere really far away from where it was originally uploaded. When those times happen, the people who download the passworded .rar are usually screwed. They consider themselves lucky when the uploader actually knows and shares the password with them. Which is what this tomek guy did.

Once again: you didn't draw that comic, you probably weren't even the one to first scan that comic, so it's ridiculous to complain that somebody "stole" your work. You stole somebody else's work!! -_-; Welcome to the Internet.
 

EnterTheVoid

Member
Jan 13, 2007
395
13
I'm going to chime in again on the side of the first uploaders with a few comments.

Tenchi20 never said stole or thief (the OP did). While spam, stole, thievery may be the wrong terms to use, their basic complaint does have merit (IMHO). While you all are right that no one should claim to 'own' a particular scan or movie file, I don't believe that's what the complaints are principally about.

Whether it's by bot or a quick bunch of copy and pastes, there's no value in uploading the same file to the board to the same file host. So the value of 'mirroring' on different file hosts is moot in the case of the smae file host being used. Mirroring to different file hosts is fine, although it should be encouraged in the same thread as the original to keep extra threads to a minimum.

And all these extra new posts it also increases the time to look through new posts for new uploads when half of them have already been uploaded (recently too).

Case in point: http://www.akiba-online.com/forum/showthread.php?t=210887 Which is another upload of Tenchi20's passworded file of Comic Rin vol 52 but using "Sweet Ass" instead of the obvious name of the anthology. Seems to be intentionally hiding the reupload.

The real NEW posts with real new content for AO tend to get lost in the reposts.

And last, but not least, doesn't all the extra reposts and the time for users to view them take more server resources and bandwidth that are a big issue here? It seems proactively trying to discourage extra posts of the same things would be useful for the server's health.


In conclusion, I'm not saying we have to have a clampdown that will cause the mods a lot of headaches, but adding a general rule that discourages re-posting someone else's upload on the same host (as long as the file is still available on that host, of course). Plus encourage mirroring on other hosts in the same thread. And the mods only really have to get involved for the most obvious and repeat offenders.

That's my 5 cents (inflation and all that :) ).
 

JaqTaar

New Member
Nov 5, 2008
878
27
The multiple threads are something I wish could be adressed, but I know it would create a lot of work for the mods.
The JAV forum for example gets at least half a dozen or so pages full of new threads each day, ie. 120+ threads.
It doesn't help that 99% of these threads don't have tags and some don't even have the actresses and/or movie names in the thread title.

Another factor that adds to the problem is that there all forms of threads (single movie, theme-collection, series-collection, actress-collection and uploader-collection) mixed in the same forums.

Also the fetish sub-forum is something I feel should either be removed or enforced, because movies of some fetish/genre/theme can often be found in both the regular and the fetish section. Sorta connected to that is the issue of what qualifies a fetish, ie which movies should go in which section.
 

wheeljack

Member
Apr 27, 2009
206
0
Anyone who partakes in internet piracy has zero right to complain about file mirroring.

I don't like mirroring without asking but can't really argue with thieves shouldn't complain about thieves reasoning.

But since the forum accept thieves posting here. There has to be rules guidelines about link hijacking, mirroring. The Mafia also have their own rules for their own to obey in their turf.

hope you get my point.
 

kbryc08

Master Cheef
Super Moderator
Nov 17, 2006
1,277
160
Mirror's on different filehosts are okay. If it's the same filehost then it just becomes a redundant waste of space and worthy of deletion.
 

Sakunyuusha

New Member
Jan 27, 2008
1,855
3
I don't like mirroring without asking but can't really argue with thieves shouldn't complain about thieves reasoning.

But since the forum accept thieves posting here. There has to be rules guidelines about link hijacking, mirroring. The Mafia also have their own rules for their own to obey in their turf.

hope you get my point.
No one has to ask your permission to mirror something you flat-out stole. If you're not going to ask the author's permission to mirror his work, why should they ask your permission to mirror your mirror? If you think you're upset, imagine how upset he must feel!

As for the mafia comparison, I understand your point but I believe it's a romantic one at best. In other words, the mafia of your imagination and the real-live mafia are two very different things, the one largely informed by Hollywood films and American television programs, the other a crime syndicate that incidentally happens to consist of members who are commonly related to one another.

Just remember the old saying: "there's no honor amongst thieves."

And if that doesn't do it for you, remember the story of Treasure Island and its iconic character, Long John Silver: the pirate who stole from other pirates.