Politicians Seek New Loli Ban

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techie

SuupaOtaku
Jul 24, 2008
568
4
Ach do schoene Sch****
They have gone nuts out there.
If I told you what I know the German government did in the 80's to their own people touristing, you'd have a riot on your hands in Berlin for sure.

Bah... they have gone nuts completely, "die Arme CDU schon wieder."

Blocking CP is one thing, but they put the "legislative action" in the hands of CIVILIANS (The ISP's) to discern what is to classify as CP.

This is not an issue of CP per say but the fact that they start to issue policing authorities to plain Joe all over the world without any scrutiny whatsoever.
 

Axandra

Member
Jul 7, 2008
79
1
[...] they put the "legislative action" in the hands of CIVILIANS (The ISP's)[...]
You are absolutely right. Which brings us back, full circle, to the root of the problem: network neutrality and the common carrier status of ISPs. Ergo, the smoke and mirrors nature of "think of the children". Not that k.p. doesn't exist, of course. But how convenient must be to be able to flag it in the front of the plebe and technically illiterate legislators to get what you want: total information flow control.
 

techie

SuupaOtaku
Jul 24, 2008
568
4
Once again it also highlights the problem that they only want to block CP not actually stop it from being delivered, which means cutting of the head of the organizations they claim are behind it.

Thus once again, closing the eyes of the public to the real issue by denying it exists, by shielding it behind a high enough electronic "Berlin Wall"
 

zackbumm

Collector
May 30, 2009
276
10
Blocking CP is one thing, but they put the "legislative action" in the hands of CIVILIANS (The ISP's) to discern what is to classify as CP.

Sorry, this information is incorrect. The list with the URLs that will get blocked will be made by the BKA (Bundeskriminalamt — a German federal LEA similar to the FBI). The ISP's have just to block the URL's from the list.

The ugly point about this is, the list is secret and nobody can control whether the list contains CP only, cauz leaking of the list is a crime (it's distribution of CP), downloading of the leaked list is a crime (try to get CP — just the try is a crime in Germany), checking the URLs on the list is a crime (again a try to get CP). So even you get the leaked list and check the URLs and find out 50% of the URLs are websites like http://www.indymedia.org or http://wikileaks.org e.g., you can't publish the result without to get REAL problems. So with this law German LEA's can block every website they want — independent of it's content.

The whole thing about it is to get control over informations because if you control all informations you will control the people! It has nothing, absolutely nothing to do with CP!
 

porkar

New Member
Apr 2, 2007
177
6
This is very similar to what the Australian government is trying to do. It won't achieve much except slow up our already painfully slow internet access.
Does anyone have a satellite I can borrow?
 

zackbumm

Collector
May 30, 2009
276
10
In our IT-News I've read about the Big Australian Wall.
But as long as you got abbywinters.com Australia isn't a lost continent. ;-)

Up to you to fight against the Big Australian Wall. When will be the next elections in Australia? ;-)
 

techie

SuupaOtaku
Jul 24, 2008
568
4
Sorry, this information is incorrect. The list with the URLs that will get blocked will be made by the BKA (Bundeskriminalamt — a German federal LEA similar to the FBI). The ISP's have just to block the URL's from the list.

I agree with what you said on CP as a general rule, but in the application of this in other countries, seeing that the UK is now going to do the same through the so-called OFCOM, it will in effect be as I said.

They dont expect ISP's to wait for orders, but to act on their own accord, and OFCOM as a reference to those not familiar with its intended function...

OFCOM is an organization started to simply provide a means for end users to report ISP's and telecom regulated corporations who dont play by the rules.
It is a regulatory advisory body if you want, not a legislative or legally empowered body to begin with.

Much like your local city council versus fully qualified legislative bodies.

So in effect, it has the same effect, perhaps not in Germany but in the UK for one.

BKA is not beyond reproach either.
There are numerous examples where they messed up several times before, and I wont even start with talking about their "Big Brother" (if you're German you know who they are)
 

ssb82

Member
Feb 13, 2008
122
1
U-15 then U-18 idols are going to be out of jobs real soon...
Soon their adult industry will become like their western counterpart - DRY and TASTELESS.
 

zackbumm

Collector
May 30, 2009
276
10
It's a regressive societal development to prudery in the western world. There is nothing immoral in just watching the juvenile beauty of adolescent girls in non-pornographic movies like U-18 Idol videos. No human being is getting abused for this kind of movies and no abuse will result out of watching this kind of movies.

Personally I think it's sick to get a sexual thrill from watching PREadoloscent girls, but then consistent watching anything non-"normal" sex movie is sick and homosexuality must be sick too. ;-) But in fact nobody is responsible for it's sexual aptitudes. But I wandered off the point.

The reason for the currently development in the western world are the U.S. American puritans (nice article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Puritanism) and theirs economic and as in consequence theirs political sway in the U.S.A. and the U.S.A.'s sway in the western world. The reason to accept and to overtake the prudish U.S. american sexual philosophy you'll find in economic interests of the worldwide operating corporations and their influence in politics. With other words: This developement is not for the welfare of the people, it's not the protection of kids, it's just simple imperialism.

I hope the Japanese people can stay free from the sick moralizing exertion of influence coming from the U.S.A. But I'm afraid, within the framework of globalization they will lose piece by piece their sexual self-determination as we in Europa are right now on the way to lose.

Just google for sexuality +usa and sexuality +religion to find serious ressources to understand the reasons for social repressions of sexuality in the western world.

---

Nice ressource for fans of JAVs, Hentai and Idol movies:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Japanese_pornography
or http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Sexuality_in_Japan
Wikipedia about Japanese porn in German: http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanische_Pornografie — Very interesting in this article: "Wissenschaftliche Untersuchungen kamen in der Vergangenheit zu dem Ergebnis, dass Japan, im Vergleich zu anderen Ländern mit restriktiverer Gesetzeslage, die niedrigste Verbrechensrate im Bereich sexueller Gewaltdelikte aller Industrienationen aufweist." Can someone else please translate it? It was a hard day and I'm too tired right now; English is not my first language as you may know after reading my lines. ;-)
 

daredemonai

Retiree
Mar 19, 2009
980
1,405
:sigh:
Once again, people are getting their panties in a bunch over a phantom "problem." And, no, I'm not talking about politicians like the New Komeito Party who are trying to change laws; I'm talking about Sankaku Complex and those of you who reacted to their blog entry as if Armageddon is upon us.

Points:

1) This is the "News" section; not a "Commentary" section

2) Sankaku Complex's rant is commentary that makes no pretense of neutrality, and contains virtually (no pun intended) no news. (Still, if you are going to reproduce it verbatim, a link would be nice, since at least the original rant includes links to actual sources.)

3) If you want a neutral (and surprisingly thorough) news summary of the current situation, put your torch and pitchfork down, take a deep breath, and read this. See? The world is not ending.

4) Key quote No. 1: "The LDP's [proposed] bill would oblige the government to conduct research on possible causal links between infringement of children's rights and manga, animation and computer graphics. The intention would be that such links would lead to regulation of those products." (Since such causal links are impossible to prove, that's a really big loophole.)

5) Key quote No. 2: "The DPJ's bill targets only products depicting live action. An official at the DPJ policy research council said the purpose of the child pornography law is to protect children from sexual abuse, and thus it should not regulate manga, anime or video games. However, the DPJ has deep concerns about sexual violence in those products and is weighing how to regulate it, he added." Surprise! A major political party (sort of) stands up for freedom of expression.

6) The New Komeito Party is the weaker member of the ruling coalition; they are Robin to the LDP's Batman. Robin can rant all he likes, but it's Batman who calls the shots. In reality, nobody reads the New Komeito Party's press releases except members: they preach to the choir.

This thread (and many others like it) is a textbook example of a scary Internet echo chamber. Someone writes an opinion, which may include distortions or statements taken out of context; others cite that opinion as if it (along with the distortions) are "facts"; people freak out and reach for the torches and pitchforks; the whole thing snowballs.

Maybe the international otaku community needs its own version of FactCheck.org. :goodboy:
 

elgringo14

Survived to Japan
Super Moderator
Apr 28, 2008
9,094
338
I completely agree with you daredemonai. Great post as usual.

Internet is just like a Pandora's box, only hope stayed inside.

It's funny to see that all news concerning the fate of erogames come from the same place. And I like how they keep quoting themselves, like in a loophole.

And their last thread, gosh, the "talibans" taking over, this is laughable, it's not even clear what is this damn fetish list.
Checking with babelfish, I don't see clearly the fact that it would be used for a ban based on the keywords, maybe it's just that they want to "label" more precisely the games contents, on top of the age limit ( JC / JK / U18 / U15 など ). It's all about "regulation" apparently, whatever it means.
I'd like to know the exact meaning of the post.

The real source is this one:

https://www3.llpalace.co.jp/dp/circleinfo.htm

And most of the (yet) 673 comments are pathetic...i would rather ban the community first.

15 years ago there was a big fuss about violent videogames in USA. Joseph Liebermann anyone ? And what came out of it ? A regulation board (ESRB) and age certifications. Not a full censorship/ban.
 

Axandra

Member
Jul 7, 2008
79
1
@ daredemonai

Of course the world doesn't end here.

I've thoroughly read The Japan Times link that you provided and which, by the way, is dated two days after this thread had been started.

[START NEWS]
Although the problem seems to have stemmed from a video game, now everything is covered in mist and definitely in a "rock and roll" state. From what I can see, it is the legalese that plays the major role in this, with terms like "sexually abusive" and "indecency" apparently possessing quite mysterious and secretive definitions. I really cannot see any struggle to defend "freedom of expression". Also, bills attempting to modify the child pornography law and Article 175 of the Criminal Code were submitted by both LDP and DPJ: where's the battle again?

Furthermore, at least one of the lawmakers trying to "change the bill so anime porn is treated the same as live-action porn" _is_ from LPD (a.k.a. Batman).
[END NEWS]

You tell me this this maneuvers shouldn't worry anyone and that the angel is in details... You're being optimistic, my friend. How long do you think will Japan last alone in not buying into the internationally pushed, slowly-slowly "consensual" interpretation of "nonphotographic images [...] considered illegal"?

Of course the world doesn't end here. Nor will the child pornography, for that matter, laws enacted or not.

However, it's not this question that should be asked; rather, how did we come to even blur the perceptual border between live acting and drawing/animation to such extent? Are we really so deluded, that we need to even raise the problem of criminality?

[START RANT]
What I find disturbing is to see that war and FPS games enjoy (rightfully) their serene and unaffected piece of clearly understood and accepted virtual reality, and that crime literature, violent motion pictures, comics (Sin City, anyone?) are still considered fiction and treated as that. Granted, they have to bear an advisory rating, and I don't see anything wrong with that.

Really, who could fail to notice that blowing the brains out of a dozen 'characters' per minute in a game is perfectly OK and that it doesn't make you (not even a potential) killer? Yet "sexually abusing" other 'characters' in another game is guaranteed to make you a raper or, even worse, a child molester if the said characters happened to look like underage 'cause you know, somehow reality gets suddenly redefined.

Honestly, how would the mentioned lawmakers explain this miraculous difference? Oh wait, let me guess, killing is neither (duh!) "sexually abusing" nor an "indecent" act... and it's fun! (Thank you George Carlin)
[END RANT]
 

daredemonai

Retiree
Mar 19, 2009
980
1,405
Thanks for the intelligent response, Axandra. All perfectly valid points, particularly the (seemingly eternal and almost universal) hypocrisy regarding sex on the one hand and violence on the other.

elgringo14! Funny you should ask, because I was about to provide a translation of that very source.

First, some context, since it's rather complicated. The source is "DejiPare" (an abbreviation of "Digital Palace"), a.k.a. L.L.Palace Corporation. Palace is a consignment sales site that sells a wide variety of erotic software created by both amateurs and professionals alike. They are also a member of the EOCS. In order to let its many clients know what the new guidelines are, they provide a summary, which I suspect is pretty much identical to the wording the EOCS sent its members in non-public correspondence. I assume the opening passage is Palace's own wording, and everything following that is from the EOCS. (Note: I'm just translating the main portion of the entry dated 2009/06/23, not the brief footnote added the next day or other particulars not of interest to people who aren't Palace clients.)
I'm sure many of you are aware of this because of television coverage and other sources from the past several months. Criticism of adult software, including r*** software, has become quite harsh, and we have been put in a position where we are forced to proceed with restrictions.

I hope you will understand the difficult situation the industry is in, and cooperate accordingly.

Genres and keywords subject to restriction (as determined by the EOCS):

レイプ    reipu (r***)
ロリ     rori (Lolita)
輪姦     rinkan (gang r***/gang bang)
陵辱     ryoujoku (r*** (also indignity, disgrace, insult))
鬼畜     kichiku (a brute/a savage/a fiend)
逆レイプ   gyaku reipu (reverse r***)
少女     shoujo (girl)
相姦     soukan (taboo sexual relations)
逆陵辱    gyaku ryoujoku (reverse r***)
強要     kyouyou (coercion)
複数プレイ  fukusuu purei (multiple play)
生徒会    seitokai (student council)
獣姦     juukan (bestiality)
拘束     kousoku (confinement)
脅迫     kyouhaku (threat/intimidation)
車内わいせつ shanai waisetu ( (indecent behavior on a train)
援助交際   enjo kousai (minor having sexual relations with an adult in exchange for money or gifts)
近親相姦   kinshin soukan (incest)
拷問     goumon (torture)
緊縛     kinbaku (binding tightly)
妊娠     ninshin (pregnancy)
強姦     goukan (r***)
奴隷     dorei (slave)
妊婦     ninpu (pregnant woman)
監禁     kankin (forced confinement)
孕ませ    haramase (impregnation)

In addition to these terms, content and keywords meant to suggest these terms (e.g., JC, JK, U18, U15, etc.) are also subject to restriction. Other terms may be added in the future.

Furthermore, these restrictions apply not only to textual information (e.g., scenarios, dialogue, hidden keywords, group and brand names, etc.) but also to images (regardless of whether they are CGI or actual photographs)
The general impression I get is the EOCS is still hammering out the details, and has begun by addressing the most obvious, superficial issues in a very general way.

Again, it is way too early to predict where this is going. Not even a month has passed since the EOCS held its emergency meeting!

As for the bills proposed by the ruling coalition and the opposition Democratic Party of Japan, both seem to want to give the impression of "doing something," while at the same time demonstrating concern about freedom of expression. The former would create some sort of committee to study possible cause-and-effect relationships between material in which there is no real-life victim and actual victimization. The DPJ proposal leaves out fictitious material entirely, and they are basically saying they will "look into" concerns about fictitious material. This information indicates to me that a majority of Diet members in both the Liberal Democratic Party and the DPJ are not willing (at this point) to include broad language that would ban fictitious portrayals of any kind. The politicians who are calling for government bans on some material are still a minority.

In any case, this is a problem for the Japanese to work out, and while many of us non-Japanese may be concerned (on both the pro and the con sides), there's not much we can do but wait and see what happens. :dunno:
 

CloudyEyes

New Member
Apr 6, 2008
12
0
How in the heck are they even supposed to enforce this? Yeah, just put an arbitrary age on a drawing and try to determine if this drawing is underage or not? Will they suddenly have manga police, putting manga artists in jail if the female characters' breasts aren't big enough or something? This is just plain goofy.
 

Ceewan

Famished
Jul 23, 2008
9,152
17,033
How in the heck are they even supposed to enforce this? Yeah, just put an arbitrary age on a drawing and try to determine if this drawing is underage or not? Will they suddenly have manga police, putting manga artists in jail if the female characters' breasts aren't big enough or something? This is just plain goofy.

I love simplicity. That was well stated CloudyEyes. You would honestly think Law Enforcement Agencies would have more important things to do.
 

vincent_z

Low Angler
Nov 27, 2007
332
208
Will A-O be banned in Germany?

Sorry, this information is incorrect. The list with the URLs that will get blocked will be made by the BKA (Bundeskriminalamt — a German federal LEA similar to the FBI). The ISP's have just to block the URL's from the list.

The ugly point about this is, the list is secret and nobody can control whether the list contains CP only, because leaking of the list is a crime (it's distribution of CP), downloading of the leaked list is a crime (try to get CP — just the try is a crime in Germany), checking the URLs on the list is a crime (again a try to get CP). So even if you get the leaked list and check the URLs and find out 50% of the URLs are websites like indymedia.org or WikiLeaks e.g., you can't publish the result without to get REAL problems. So with this law German LEA's can block every website they want — independent of its content.

The whole thing about it is to get control over information because if you control all information you will control the people! It has nothing, absolutely nothing to do with CP!
Zackbumm gets fingerprints all over the topic here. But he did give everybody the crucial link.

I conversed privately with a moderator here at A-O for guidence on manuevering this on-line minefield. I won't make it a hotlink (not even with an anonymizing interstitial), but I can relate that at least one country's list of "banned websites" has leaked to the internet.

It is Denmark's.
I suited up a very strong anonymous proxy and found the page with the list. I glanced in its 'Talk' tab to see if anybody else had checked the websites on it. Some had.
In a sufficient number of instances, the websites on the banned list did not have CP content. (They were not junior idol websites either.)

Some of the 'banned' URLs were thumbnail group picture link sites to age 18+ gay porn content. I wonder who had input as to the composition of the list?

Lists, by their nature, get out-of-order as they increase. How often can somebody visit a listed website to view what it has? What was questionable yesterday may be gone next Saturday. Further, the maintainers of the affected websites were not contacted and informed that their website(s) were going on the banned list.
Many of them have no idea that their website is considered "illegal".
Therefore, they also have no idea on how to remove themselves from the banned list.
The intent is beneficial. But there will always be people in positions of authority who will abuse their authority in order to provide an advantage or disadvantage to something they enjoy or loathe. In the case of Denmark's banned sites, someone with an axe to grind against any or all on-line erotic content has unfairly, and without any semblance of jurisprudence, attempted to "kill off" websites with content which is legal in countries which still allow freedom of expression (including the U.S.A.).
 

porkar

New Member
Apr 2, 2007
177
6
Vincent_z,
A similar situation occurred last year in Australia where the government flagged the idea of internet censorship by introducing filters. The list of 'suspect' sites included some legitimate business sites that had nothing to do with porn of any type, let alone cp. The government then said that the list was out of date. The publicising of the list was also deemed illegal. I'm not sure of the current situation, the Minister is pussy footing around the 'minefield' at this stage; with a bit of luck he will step in something smelly soon and sink in up to his neck.
Strangely, internet filters have been available on a voluntary basis for years for people to keep their children 'safe' from the baddies.
 

techie

SuupaOtaku
Jul 24, 2008
568
4
That's not all. Some interesting sources in side media have referenced very well positioned sources stating that the next time something happens in an event classifiable under US law as severe enough (you know what I talk about) they will shut down the Internet at will and blame it on a "glitch in the network".

After that point on, you'll be happy if you find any untainted/uncensored broadcasting anymore, from anywhere.

I've spent about one week digging in the more darker corners up until mainstream media about new potential legislation since I also host sites in the US, though am not there myself. It could adversely affect any and all forms of small business, so if they want a major crash of the markets in time for the end of the fiscal year September/October this is likely to happen soon. We'll see and waiting eagerly for news on a daily basis on the next congressional vote based on J Rockefeller's initiative.
 

elgringo14

Survived to Japan
Super Moderator
Apr 28, 2008
9,094
338
Will the coming (and slightly anticipated) elections of the japanese Diet have an influence on the legislative procedure (e.g. whatever new law they want to create about child porn), or are they already finished with it ?