Japan to Mobilize

[ardo]

Japan says it will mobilize its coast guard when Chinese government ships reach a disputed archipelago in the East China Sea, raising the possibility of a confrontation between the two powerful Asian nations.

China said it sent the government ships to the archipelago in response to the Japanese government's decision to buy some of the islands from a Japanese family that has owned them for decades.

Tokyo annexed the archipelago in 1895. Beijing claimed sovereignty over the islands in 1971...

http://www.voanews.com/content/china-japan-islands-ships-disputed/1506147.html

Chinese defense ministry spokesman Geng Yansheng said Tuesday the military is "resolutely opposed" to Japan's nationalization of the islands. He said the Chinese military was "closely watching developments ... and reserves the right to take corresponding measures."

Japanese news agency Jiji quoted "informed sources" as saying the Chinese defense ministry's statement suggests that "hardline" anti-Japanese views are "increasing" within the Chinese military.

Taiwan also claims the disputed islands. It sent a protest note to Japan about the purchase on Tuesday.

Escorted by warplanes and naval vessels, President Ma Ying-jeou flew by military helicopter to Taiwan’s Pengchia Islet, which lies off northern Taiwan, only about 140 kilometers (85 miles) west of the disputed chain.

Ma also asked commanders at two Taiwan-controlled islets in South China Sea’s Pratas and Spratly island chains to strengthen guards. Those chains are claimed by Taiwan, China, Vietnam, the Philippines, Brunei and Malaysia.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world...fb2d10-f8ca-11e1-a93b-7185e3f88849_story.html

 

[alibarbar]

Thanks for your message, Ardo.

I tried not to phrase "I am Taiwanese" from last two comments since, again, people would just think "you are one of Chinese"(and put me aside. not me actually, I think any of Taiwanese would get the same treat if they speak loudly: "Taiwan is a Country").

I really don't care who should own the island(any of you are chinese or taiwanese don't question me if l love my race....). I most concernt is the fish I eat on my dinning table. Or, I should say: who's got authority to arrest those fishmen who fishing around the Diaoyu island? p.s. Fishmen were not armed.

(edit back because I was hurry for my work...)

Couple years ago, TWO Japan armed ships crashed down a Taiwan fishing boat and arrest the boat members at Diaoyu island area. Could Japan, accroding to what kind of law, do that? A complete boat was broken and sinked into water? That so-called humanity/liberty/justice big brother, where were you? Fishing men were fishing for living(rasing kids, families...they are probably no rich them any of us), they were innocents. Why would you Japan'd done that so violently/rough/implitely/inhumanity???

Yeah, I knew. Japan would say: you "Chinese"....

-----in addition----
At the moment I just turned to this page, I was sudden touched and almost cried since that red flag. The flag stands for a lot meaning. A kid wear a jacket with this flag on the back in the movie "Empire of the Sun"(1987), I was same touched when I see the scene. And in addition of the in-addition, that kid plays batman nowadays.

Peace

 

[TravelingWind]

:bow-pray:

A moment of silence for the ones who will die in this pointless resource-grab bullshit

 

[Ceewan]

It is not about resources, don't let the press fool you. This is about politics and grandstanding. People die for their country for most ludicrous of reasons at times. Something like this could escalate unbelievably. WWIII is not totally out of the question. It would be insane, yes, but that never stopped anyone before.

U.S. Assistant Secretary of State Kurt Campbell cautioned China and Japan on Tuesday against escalating the dispute, saying the stakes “could not be bigger” and tension could have global repercussions.

source:
http://www.livemint.com/Politics/Hm...heels-as-rhetoric-escalates-over-islands.html

 

[Belion]

War is imminent
Its already on their doorstep
Who will fire the first shot

And whole world will engulf on a familiar sight of Terror

WAR

 

[Ceewan]

War is imminent

I don't know if I would say imminent but it is a scary possibility. Usually financial and international political influences, (yes, even nations deal with peer pressure), guide a countries decisions to go to war. Those indicatations seem non-existent here. There are noteworthy exceptions to this rule, aside from civil war that is but not many. If China believes they can isolate the incident from total political fallout and financial ruin then there is no reason for them not to used armed force. Japan surely believes that China is just posturing here and is calling their bluff. I admit, it does have powder keg wrtten all over it but I wouldn't consider the match tossed just yet.

I am glad to be a few thousand miles away from this though. Any explosion is likely to have collateral damage and I wouldn't want to be anywhere near it. Probably not a good time to take a vacation in either country until the dust settles on this matter, in my humble opinion.

 

[chickensaw]

I don't know if I would say imminent but it is a scary possibility. Usually financial and international political influences, (yes, even nations deal with peer pressure), guide a countries decisions to go to war. Those indicatations seem non-existent here. There are noteworthy exceptions to this rule, aside from civil war that is but not many. If China believes they can isolate the incident from total political fallout and financial ruin then there is no reason for them not to used armed force. Japan surely believes that China is just posturing here and is calling their bluff. I admit, it does have powder keg wrtten all over it but I wouldn't consider the match tossed just yet.

I am glad to be a few thousand miles away from this though. Any explosion is likely to have collateral damage and I wouldn't want to be anywhere near it. Probably not a good time to take a vacation in either country until the dust settles on this matter, in my humble opinion.

Oh, please. Turn up your oxygen. They are not stupid enough to go to war over these islands, despite the massive amounts of natural resources (allegedly) held underneath the waters. There are simply incentives to do so. China's economy growth is slowing and they are currently in the middle of a power transition. Corruption is through the roof, especially at the top. The economy is based on manufacturing, true, but with an expanding middle class wages are rising and Chinese competitiveness in this area decreasing. They have way too many domestic issues to risk a war. Keep in mind that with all the corruption at the top, if they go to war they risk losing everything. They aren't that stupid. Despite the political saber-rattling Japanese and Chinese economies are intertwined to the tune of hundreds of billions of dollars. Japan's economy is in the dumps and has been for years, but it still has a large enough economic interest in China not to go to war.

The "nationalist front" in Japan is a fringe movement, at best - and I also suspect it's true in China, where the country is so restricted in terms of the freedom of information that they will listen to whatever the official media spouts. The foreign media loves to cover this sort of thing because it garners attention - but not taking a vacation in either these countries - are you serious? This is political posturing, plain and simple. Both sides love to do it because it garners votes and distracts people from the issues going on at home.

 

[Ceewan]

Oh, please. Turn up your oxygen.

I suppose I did sound a bit like an alarmist but I have lived a few years and know a bit about gambling and table stakes. The PRC are not predictable enough for me. Do I think war is likely? No, and I said so. If you are capable of reading you should have read that as well, you quoted it. Am I willing to stake my life on it? No, I am not. You may if you wish. I would rather wait to see how this plays out. If you think that is an unreasonable stance to take you are welcome to your opinion. Personally I would suggest you research Chinas' increasingly confrontational and aggressive stance concerning island and oceanic territorial claims in southeast asia before you consider the sanity of Chinas' "Political Posturing".

Things happen. In 1983 Korean Air Lines Flight 007 was shot down by a Soviet interceptor Su-15 over the Sea of Japan. All 269 passengers and crew aboard were killed, including Lawrence McDonald, a sitting member of the United States Congress. The aircraft was en route from New York City to Seoul via Anchorage when it strayed into prohibited Soviet airspace around the time of a U.S. reconnaissance mission. The incident was one of the most tense moments of the Cold War, and resulted in an escalation of anti-Soviet sentiment, particularly in the United States. Sure neither country really wanted war and none followed the incident but.....

When counties starting making military threats against one another things can turn nasty in a heartbeat. That isn't lack of oxygen talking, this is just fact. The Chinese and Japanese governments aren't the ones holding the guns, people are. Plain, everyday, imperfect, fallible people.

 

[lb32435]

Wasn't WW3 meant to start when North Korea and South Korea were weapons testing last year....

Anyway It's peoples right to know what their governments are doing, but disputes like this are very frequent and don't get much media attention. But with a super power involved, one so especially militarized and aggressive in all its politics of course people are going to panic.

The UN will investigate the claims of ownership bringing the whole thing to a bureaucratic stand still, things may get a bit hairy but hopefully all parties will see the futility. You would think the happy ending would be if no one gets hurt, but both governments aren't going to want to lose face.

Just how powerful China is, it's very scary. But the growth they have been undergoing over the last decade or so, they can't maintain it without being in the good favors of other countries. Their government certainly has its problems but I can't see them going for a fascistic power-play like Nazi Germany. Also I'd like to think things aren't as tense, that most of the civilized world has grown a lot smarter, and there isn't a mass hysteria gripping people like during the cold war.

So no I can't see things escalating so far, is it possible; yeah of course. But I for one refuse to believe we are living on a knifes edge, at the whim of a sweaty finger hovering over a red button.

 

[chickensaw]

I suppose I did sound a bit like an alarmist but I have lived a few years and know a bit about gambling and table stakes. The PRC are not predictable enough for me. Do I think war is likely? No, and I said so. If you are capable of reading you should have read that as well, you quoted it. Am I willing to stake my life on it? No, I am not. You may if you wish. I would rather wait to see how this plays out. If you think that is an unreasonable stance to take you are welcome to your opinion. Personally I would suggest you research Chinas' increasingly confrontational and aggressive stance concerning island and oceanic territorial claims in southeast asia before you consider the sanity of Chinas' "Political Posturing".

Things happen. In 1983 Korean Air Lines Flight 007 was shot down by a Soviet interceptor Su-15 over the Sea of Japan. All 269 passengers and crew aboard were killed, including Lawrence McDonald, a sitting member of the United States Congress. The aircraft was en route from New York City to Seoul via Anchorage when it strayed into prohibited Soviet airspace around the time of a U.S. reconnaissance mission. The incident was one of the most tense moments of the Cold War, and resulted in an escalation of anti-Soviet sentiment, particularly in the United States. Sure neither country really wanted war and none followed the incident but.....

When counties starting making military threats against one another things can turn nasty in a heartbeat. That isn't lack of oxygen talking, this is just fact. The Chinese and Japanese governments aren't the ones holding the guns, people are. Plain, everyday, imperfect, fallible people.

A *bit* like an alarmist? Saying you don't think war is likely on one hand, but then making pronouncements with the other that staying clear of the eastern Asia-Pacific region is a good idea. Making cold war analogies on one hand, then saying nothing actually happened with the other. The cognitive dissonance in your posts are making my ears ring.

The geopolitics of the world we live in are nothing like that in the 60s or the 70s, that much is apparent. Cold war analogies here are just about as valid as predicting the resurgence of Marxism in China, a country which is clearly Communist in appearance, but capitalistic in ideology. The balance of military power is completely different. The economics and scale of economic intertwining are completely different. The political ideologies at stake are completely different. The free flow of information is different. We live in a radically different world. Tensions were NOTHING like where they were at the height of the Cuban Missile Crisis or anywhere during the Cold War. THAT is a situation where war is a possibility. This is simply another chapter in a saga that has been going on for the better part of two to three decades, frothed up to a frenzy by the media.

Yes, China is saying "mine, mine, mine" in the pacific. It likes to throw around its hard power in the area like the bully on the block that's hit puberty before everybody else. But that's simply because it knows it is the biggest kid on the block. China believes that its "time has come," that its ascendancy is nigh. But the picture points to the possibility of alternate scenarios. A widening wealth gap, an aging population, slowing economic growth, corruption on an apocalyptic scale (e.g. Bo Xilai is rumored to have amassed a fortune north of hundreds of mililons of dollars) a marked inability to divest itself from state-planned economics (which inevitably results in poor investment choices)...the list of reasons why things could go wrong goes on and on.

The relative temerity of China on the international stage is a good example of how they are very uncomfortable in the shoes of a major power, unlike the seasoned global presence of the United States or countries in the EU. They know they can bully around Indonesia or Vietnam, but they do dial down the rhetoric significantly when Western powers come calling. They're seeing how far they can push their neighbors, and this is a terrific example of it. Luckily, the other countries around China are either too smart or too scared to do anything about it and are willing to pursue an accommodating policy. There is no evidence that anything is likely to change in the future - unless, that is, your idea of "research" is to read fringe blogs and other 'publications.'

 

[chikan_hope]

China gettiing greedy

China is not only disputing islands with Japan, but also Vietnam in the South China Seas, in which Vietnam asking for military training assistance from the US who would have. Taiwan also claiming both chains of islands in those two separate dispute.

 

[Ceewan]

A *bit* like an alarmist? Saying you don't think war is likely on one hand, but then making pronouncements with the other that staying clear of the eastern Asia-Pacific region is a good idea. Making cold war analogies on one hand, then saying nothing actually happened with the other. The cognitive dissonance in your posts are making my ears ring.

The geopolitics of the world we live in are nothing like that in the 60s or the 70s, that much is apparent. Cold war analogies here are just about as valid as predicting the resurgence of Marxism in China, a country which is clearly Communist in appearance, but capitalistic in ideology.

269 innocent people died in my "analogy" because there were tensions between two nations that had no serious intention of going to war with each other. It was not only a regrettably incident but a preventable one, someone just got trigger happy. It was not a good time in those poor bastards shortened lives to end up flying over Soviet airspace. I am sorry that my example went over your head and I had to explain it to you. I will try to dumb it down for you next time. That was not a "Cold War" analogy per se but referring to how collateral damage can happen when military "tensions" between two nations arise. There are many, many other examples in history and the geopoltics or any other factor meant squat to the innocent non-combatants that died.

They know they can bully around Indonesia or Vietnam, but they do dial down the rhetoric significantly when Western powers come calling. They're seeing how far they can push their neighbors, and this is a terrific example of it. Luckily, the other countries around China are either too smart or too scared to do anything about it and are willing to pursue an accommodating policy. There is no evidence that anything is likely to change in the future - unless, that is, your idea of "research" is to read fringe blogs and other 'publications.'

I do not know where you are getting your news from but The Phillipines and Vietnam have not been backing down as you suggest. From all reports I have seen they are not scared of China, (you must be thinking of Cambodia), they are just tired of Chinas' aggessive attitude. When you have even Vietnam sharpening their naval skills with the US in joint training exercises as well as Indonesia and The Phillipines you have nations that seem like they are getting ready to defend themselves against aggression, not run from it. There is a lot of information on the internet pertaining to this from regular online news publications. Not that hard to find really, just google it.

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Southeast_Asia/NI15Ae02.html
http://www.smh.com.au/world/tensions-rise-as-china-hits-back-at-the-philippines-20120913-25v7i.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/China–Vietnam_relations
http://seattletimes.com/html/nationworld/2019150248_apasasiadisputedislands.html

 

[megatroll]

The cognitive dissonance in your posts are making my ears ring.

There is no evidence that anything is likely to change in the future - unless, that is, your idea of "research" is to read fringe blogs and other 'publications.'

I am sorry that my example went over your head and I had to explain it to you. I will try to dumb it down for you next time.
[...]
Vietnam sharpening their naval skills with the US:chinesenewyearf:
[...]
I do not know where you are getting your news from [...] There is a lot of information on the internet pertaining to this from regular online news publications. Not that hard to find really, just google it.

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Southeast_Asia/NI15Ae02.html
http://www.smh.com.au/world/tensions-rise-as-china-hits-back-at-the-philippines-20120913-25v7i.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/China–Vietnam_relations
http://seattletimes.com/html/nationworld/2019150248_apasasiadisputedislands.html

You forgot http://www.stripes.com/ :snicker2:

Sorry for interrupting, just wanted to say I enjoy this discussion very much. :grassdance:

 

[chikan_hope]

269 innocent people died in my "analogy" because there were tensions between two nations that had no serious intention of going to war with each other. It was not only a regrettably incident but a preventable one, someone just got trigger happy. It was not a good time in those poor bastards shortened lives to end up flying over Soviet airspace. I am sorry that my example went over your head and I had to explain it to you. I will try to dumb it down for you next time. That was not a "Cold War" analogy per se but referring to how collateral damage can happen when military "tensions" between two nations arise. There are many, many other examples in history and the geopoltics or any other factor meant squat to the innocent non-combatants that died.



I do not know where you are getting your news from but The Phillipines and Vietnam have not been backing down as you suggest. From all reports I have seen they are not scared of China, (you must be thinking of Cambodia), they are just tired of Chinas' aggessive attitude. When you have even Vietnam sharpening their naval skills with the US in joint training exercises as well as Indonesia and The Phillipines you have nations that seem like they are getting ready to defend themselves against aggression, not run from it. There is a lot of information on the internet pertaining to this from regular online news publications. Not that hard to find really, just google it.

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Southeast_Asia/NI15Ae02.html
http://www.smh.com.au/world/tensions-rise-as-china-hits-back-at-the-philippines-20120913-25v7i.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/China–Vietnam_relations
http://seattletimes.com/html/nationworld/2019150248_apasasiadisputedislands.html

Vietnam is also switching calibers from 7.62x39 to 5.56 nato being supplied by USA.

 

[firebo14]

When counties starting making military threats against one another things can turn nasty in a heartbeat. That isn't lack of oxygen talking, this is just fact. The Chinese and Japanese governments aren't the ones holding the guns, people are. Plain, everyday, imperfect, fallible people.

Ugly imbecilic people like these:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kgqUyhG0Zfk

And also the Muslims hate Americans too... all because of 1 person who made the anti-Islam film.

World War 3 may be......... coming.... :notagain:

:harp:

 

[Ceewan]

In all fairness the Muslims don't like the Chinese much either. Most people aren't aware of this but before the Trade Center Incident the Taliban had been causing mayhem in China for years and still is a thorn in their side. China is not very tolerant of the whole religious freedom concept, though they have made half-hearted efforts, ( I actually saw a preacher from a Shang Hai church give a sermon once), and they are constantly shutting them down. Article 36 of the Chinese Constitution is a lot more limiting than it sounds. But...back on topic:


You know one of the guys making comments on that link sounds a lot like megatroll. Nice link firebo, thx for the share.

 

[lactophilia]

Sorry, but I have to correct this point:

The Taliban never had any noticable influence in China's western Uyghur province (Xinjiang). Problems there have a much longer history. After the muslim Uyghur people sided with the communists during the long march and in fighting to free the country, they were guaranteed autonomy or even - if wished - independence by Mao Zedong. 1949 the most leading politicans of the Uyghurs died in a mysterious plane crash while they were on their way to Beijing to discuss this issue. Other leaders were silenced, executed or went into exile. The Uyghur region (Xinjiang) was declared an autonomous region, but in fact it's the communist party to this very day controlling everything. There were several organisations fighting for Uyghur independence, and sometimes they get supported by peole from outside Chinese borders. But they don't really stand a chance, poliical opposition will be suppressed, while seldom acts violence always only remains a punctiform phenomenon, but will change nothing concerning the situation. Border controls are very severe in both directions, so the chances someone getting in or out of the country are very low.

However, after the Bush administration started dividing the world in good and evil, the Chinese government reacted to this chance and hence called the Uyghur independence movement "terrorists", linking them to Al Kaida & the Taliban, killing two birds with one stone, since this gave them the pretext to deal with it a more severe way, and they wouldn't have to search for excuses towards western countries: "they're terrorists" and nobody would ask questions.

 

[Ceewan]

I actually researched that statement a bit before I made it, I suppose I should have delved further. The Taliban coming across the border from Afghanistan and Pakistan, which border China, sounded very reasonable and believable. That does not mean my information was correct. I am not beyond making errors and I admit, after further research, I may have been misled here. Thank you for your input and clarification on that issue.

 

[lactophilia]

Well, nobody is an ultimate expert. I've studied these things a bit and lived there, but don't necessarily know everything about this.

Regarding this whole conflict ... I'm still somehow suspecting, that this has to do with the affairs around Bo Xilai, which was a big issue for the Chinese government, because it would have forced them to admit and face corruption within their own highest circles. Maybe this anti-Japanese outrage wasn't directed by the government, but it couldn't have happened without the government fueling and allowing it. Lucky coincidence for some, one might say. - "Wag the dog", anyone?!