learning Japanese?

[akifan]

Well the logic behind this makes sense to me and I see how using honorifics for members of the company is considered rude when speaking to a client.

Also the concept exists to an extent in French, so this is not completely foreign to me. The second person plural is used as a display of politeness or respect when addressing a single person (a boss, client, senior, etc.). You will say "Comment allez-vous?" (How are you?) instead of "Comment vas-tu?" (How are you?). This is never applied when speaking of someone in the third person however so the first mistake you mentioned is not really possible, but a variation of the second one is since you will sometimes talk in the second person plural to someone who will respond in the second person singular or vice-versa.

I guess this is more encouraging than discouraging since I had already been told that foreigners aren't really expected to always get politeness right and you not only confirm this but say that Japanese aren't always expected to either.

One thing I don't understand - is there a difference between the verbs おる and いる themselves? Both are listed as 謙譲語 but I'm not clear if this is a referent or addressee honorific and if either or both are appropriate in this context. Otherwise I understand you used a referent honorific with いる (though I haven't learned how to use it yet) and only the addressee honorific ます (with which I'm somewhat familiar) with おる.

I'm getting a headache thinking about the referent honorifics but they can wait and otherwise I find your post somewhat encouraging. I learned a few things like a pretty easy to remember kanji for a word I already knew as well as a new form of it and understand most of it.

Except "Kore de kekkou desu"... the space confuses me a bit here but that should be understood as これで (with this) 結構です ([I'm] fine) and not これ (common interjection) で (use of the "de" particle I'd be unfamiliar with), which would kinda screw up the humility and be unclear since 結構です is also used to politely decline an offer (いえ、結構です - the only use of this expression I've seen to date), right?

I think that's going to be the part I'm going to have most problem with until I build a larger vocabulary - figuring where the words end. Particles and declinations help when the words themselves are in kanji, but otherwise they seem to make it even more confusing for unfamiliar words as there often exists words ending with the kana for the particle...

Also, is ただいま often used over ただ今 (noted as the popular form over 只今 in EDICT but no mention of ただいま)? A bit disappointing if this new kanji is optional :chinesenewyearf:

 

[indreamsiwalk]

One thing I don't understand - is there a difference between the verbs おる and いる themselves? Both are listed as 謙譲語 but I'm not clear if this is a referent or addressee honorific and if either or both are appropriate in this context. Otherwise I understand you used a referent honorific with いる (though I haven't learned how to use it yet) and only the addressee honorific ます (with which I'm somewhat familiar) with おる.

いる is basically neutral. You can use いる with friends and family, or with younger people. You can use います with acquaintances or strangers more or less your own age with whom you have no clear superior/subordinate relationship. おります is a humble way of referring to your own actions/presence or of those within your group to outsiders when using more polite speech. おる is basically regional dialect used much like いる in informal speech with equals/subordinates. I know it's used in the Kansai region, but I don't know about other places. (To complicate things more, in Kansai it's common to use いはる or いはります instead of いらっしゃる or いらっしゃいます.)

Except "Kore de kekkou desu"... the space confuses me a bit here but that should be understood as これで (with this) 結構です ([I'm] fine) and not これ (common interjection) で (use of the "de" particle I'd be unfamiliar with), which would kinda screw up the humility and be unclear since 結構です is also used to politely decline an offer (いえ、結構です - the only use of this expression I've seen to date), right?

The space has no profound meaning. It's just one way of writing it in the Latin alphabet. Doesn't matter if you write it as "korede" or "kore de". で is a particle that's used in a wide variety of ways, as I'm sure you've already realized. いえ、結構です is a very common way of politely declining something offered, similar to the English "No, I'm fine, thank you." I don't know if this makes things more clear or more confusing for you.

I think that's going to be the part I'm going to have most problem with until I build a larger vocabulary - figuring where the words end. Particles and declinations help when the words themselves are in kanji, but otherwise they seem to make it even more confusing for unfamiliar words as there often exists words ending with the kana for the particle...

Hmm. I'm not sure what you're referring to here. Can you give me an example? Maybe I can clear it up a bit.

Also, is ただいま often used over ただ今 (noted as the popular form over 只今 in EDICT but no mention of ただいま)? A bit disappointing if this new kanji is optional :chinesenewyearf:

You see all three in writing, but hiragana-only is most common, followed by ただ今, with 只今 being least common. 只 is not a kanji you encounter all that often, but it's an important one to file away in your brain so you recognize it when you see it. And it's simple to write, so you're not likely to forget how to write it if the need should ever arise.

You may not have encountered it yet, but there are two ただs in Japanese: 只 and 唯. While the first means "ordinary/common" or "free of charge," the latter means "nothing but" or "only; simply; merely." Obviously they have similar linguistic roots. (ただいま ["Just now"] is commonly written 只今, but can also be written 唯今.) What can be confusing is the fact that both are almost always written in hiragana. But since they are both commonly used in predetermined idioms, you can almost always tell from context which it is. But this is something you don't have to worry about now, so I probably shouldn't have brought it up. :exhausted:

 

[akifan]

おります is a humble way of referring to your own actions/presence or of those within your group to outsiders when using more polite speech. おる is basically regional dialect used much like いる in informal speech with equals/subordinates. I know it's used in the Kansai region, but I don't know about other places. (To complicate things more, in Kansai it's common to use いはる or いはります instead of いらっしゃる or いらっしゃいます.)

Err. Now you've got me confused. Are you actually saying that おります is not the polite conjugation of the "u-verb" おる but has a different meaning? Or that the polite form is used in Japan in general but that the non polite form is only part of a regional dialect? My question was if there's a difference between the stems before any inflexions, assuming that they had basically the same meaning but that one might be more polite. Seems I'm completely missing something.

The space has no profound meaning. It's just one way of writing it in the Latin alphabet. Doesn't matter if you write it as "korede" or "kore de". で is a particle that's used in a wide variety of ways, as I'm sure you've already realized. いえ、結構です is a very common way of politely declining something offered, similar to the English "No, I'm fine, thank you." I don't know if this makes things more clear or more confusing for you.

Well, neither :silence: I know the space is not fundamentally significant but since
you used it elsewhere to separate particles I was wondering if that was the case here too. What I'm asking is if the kana で is used here represents the particle で or is part of the word これで (expression; here, with this). This would make これ (interjection; used to get the attention of one's equals or inferiors) + で (particle; (1) indicates location of action, at, in, (2) indicates time of action, (3) indicates means of action, cause of effect, by, (4) and then, so). I guess "hey, then fine" kinda works but the first option seems to make more sense. This is an example of my problem determining where a word I'm not familiar with ends so I can look it up... a sentence is just charabia unless you can divide it into it's components and the lack of whitespace makes this hard.

Now I'm getting a bit discouraged :silence:

 

[indreamsiwalk]

Err. Now you've got me confused. Are you actually saying that おります is not the polite conjugation of the "u-verb" おる but has a different meaning? Or that the polite form is used in Japan in general but that the non polite form is only part of a regional dialect? My question was if there's a difference between the stems before any inflexions, assuming that they had basically the same meaning but that one might be more polite. Seems I'm completely missing something.

No, you're not missing anything. In the strict, dictionary sense, おる and おります have identical meaning. It's just that in practice, you would rarely have a case where you would use おる instead おります (or おった instead of おりました), because dictionary forms ending in る are inherently informal, if you see what I mean. If the person you were talking to was someone you could use informal dictionary forms with, you would just say いる instead of おる. In Kansai, some people use おる in pretty much the same way as いる in informal speech. But forget about Kansai dialect. It's really pretty simple:

いる informal
います semi-formal
おります formal

Now, I won't even mention that you can use おる in pretty much the same way as いらっしゃる to refer to someone else's actions/presence by using it in the passive voice, i.e. おられます, because that will just confuse you more. :evillaugh:

Well, neither :silence: I know the space is not fundamentally significant but since you used it elsewhere to separate particles I was wondering if that was the case here too. What I'm asking is if the kana で is used here represents the particle で or is part of the word これで (expression; here, with this). This would make これ (interjection; used to get the attention of one's equals or inferiors) + で (particle; (1) indicates location of action, at, in, (2) indicates time of action, (3) indicates means of action, cause of effect, by, (4) and then, so). I guess "hey, then fine" kinda works but the first option seems to make more sense.

Oh, I see what you mean. Sorry I wasn't more clear. で here is a particle, yes. There is no word これで. So, これで結構です would literally translate "It is fine with/by/as this."

This is an example of my problem determining where a word I'm not familiar with ends so I can look it up... a sentence is just charabia unless you can divide it into it's components and the lack of whitespace makes this hard.

Okay, I see what you mean now. Yes, that can be confusing. That's why in children's books, which use only hiragana, there are always spaces between words. Without those spaces, even an adult Japanese would be confused by an unbroken string of hiragana.

Now I'm getting a bit discouraged :silence:

Sorry about that. I didn't know what your current level is, so I ended up raising issues you really don't have to think about at this point.

I was going to recommend reading shonen or shojo manga, but since they contain too much slang, contractions, colloquialisms, etc., that can't be found in a dictionary, you might want to wait on that. Children's books are easy to read because they are all hiragana, have spaces, and (generally) use standard Japanese that can be looked up in dictionaries without difficulty. There are plenty of great children's books in Japanese. Nice art, fun stories. When my child was a preschooler, we subscribed to こどものとも, which delivers a new, high-quality children's book once a month. They even have different series for different age groups: 10 months to 2 years; 2 to 4 years; 4 to 5 years; 5 to 6 years; 1st and 2nd graders; 3rd grade and up. It's hard to believe they can produce so many high-quality children's books every month, but they do. Subscriptions range in price from 4560 to 9240 yen per year, depending on the series.

 

[akifan]

No, you're not missing anything. In the strict, dictionary sense, おる and おります have identical meaning. It's just that in practice, you would rarely have a case where you would use おる instead おります (or おった instead of おりました), because dictionary forms ending in る are inherently informal, if you see what I mean.

Yeah I see what you mean about usage, but I really need to build a mental map and make sense of this so I don't have to memorize each inflexion as existing in a vacuum if you know what I mean. The way I'm thinking of it is that おる and おります are the same verb and おります is just a polite conjugation, though I realize it's used in a completely different context (somewhat analogous to a niveau de langue and how you generally don't use the same vocabulary and tenses to speak to family as to write authoritative papers in French.) What I store as an answer to my original question is that おる (as a stem) is more formal than いる and that since it belongs to a more formal "language level" it's only appropriate to use it with formal conjugation. That this is not universally valid and there are dialects where this usage varies and contexts where the meaning is different is to be expected in a living language, but that's something to be corrected later.

As for これで, I really brain farted there... sorry. I saw これ as the equivalent of a demonstrative pronoun before but forgot about it and EDICT noting これで as an expression since it's common and useful for beginners confused me into thinking it was a single word.

My current proficiency level is complete newb... I started gathering ressources 2 weeks ago and seriously studying 8 days ago. Gimme a couple weeks, then we'll talk Thanks a lot for confusing me and clearing it up, it helps.

 

[Bidouleroux]

Michel Courtemanche probably can't even tell Japanese from Mandarin

does anyone know what this
guy is saying in japanese? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cNtXL65fbB8

lol!

This guy is a French-Canadian comic from Quebec who doesn't speak a word of Japanese, not in this clip and not in real life (as far as I know, and this clip is old so he may have learned some who knows). As a French-Canadian (also from Quebec) who speaks Japanese, I have lost some respect for him hearing that clip -it actually hurt my ears- and as for the miming I find it idiotic at best. I never liked the guy much to begin with anyway so not a great loss!

 

[isme7776]

waves

try here, this stage 6 user has a bunch of half hour beginning Japanese lessons The lessons talk about a textbook that goes with the course which if you look around abit you can find a torrent for. The series of lessons had over 50 parts too it. You should still be able to find all of them on stage 6 somewhere if you search around

http://www.stage6.com/user/wadio/videos/group:uservideos

 

[Alein_159]

I like this adress

http://sp.cis.iwate-u.ac.jp/sp/lesson/j/doc/japanese.html
its about culture

And this

http://www.coolslang.com/

its about slang

 

[indreamsiwalk]

I like this adress

http://sp.cis.iwate-u.ac.jp/sp/lesson/j/doc/japanese.html
its about culture

And this

http://www.coolslang.com/

its about slang

Hmm. I took a look at both.

The first one is inconsistent in it's Romanization of Japanese. For example, they write "Itu kimasita ka" ("When did [you/he/she/they/it] come?") instead of "Itsu kimashita ka". The site seems poorly organized, and I don't think it was made by professional teachers of Japanese. If you just want to get a taste of the language, it might be all right, but it's no good if you are serious about learning Japanese.

As for the slang site, it has the problem all slang "dictionaries" do: Where do you draw the line between slang and standard language? What slang merits inclusion? Who decides when a slang word becomes "outdated" and should be removed? Some of the words listed are not slang at all, or are limited to an extremely small community, or are just minor variations. And since anyone can comment, there are plenty of errors. Again, this is all right if you are just curious, but I wouldn't recommend trying to incorporate these words into your Japanese without some native/expert guidance.

 

[guy]

http://www.guidetojapanese.org/
↑ Excellent guide. It's not organized into lessons per-se, at least not in regard to people trying to learn from scratch. But it's a great reference/guide, especially if you have basic grammar down, and are trying to figure out why a sentence is constructed in a particular way.

As for the slang dictionaries, someone tell me if they find one for パソコン／２ちゃんえる slang. You know, such as kwsk=/r/info. Also, modern schoolyard slang is interesting, such as the ABC's of H/エッチ, or the way people shorthand their 携帯 text messages using a mix of kanji/kana/ascii. щ(ﾟДﾟщ)

 

[desioner]

A not so new powerful resource I think some of you might know of is iTunes. If not please download it and check out the podcasts. I tried to listen to ~7 different Japanese casts, but unfortunately most were under my standards of quality in either content or sound quality. Also a lot of them were covering nothing new or interesting for me. But I think that if your starting out and or just need to hear native & translated Japanese. Best of luck to those learning.
desioner

 

[Denamic]

That's the one feature with iTunes I actually like.
The fact it has a built in accessibility to a large database of podcasts.
Always use winamp for anything sound related. Have been using it since ever, and always will.
Good suggestion though. Listening to japanese podcasts is a form of forced learning through exposure.

 

[stixitin]

love to learn

i would love to learn japanese,but unfortunately college in my part of the world is a no-no so i reckon i would have to rely on books,text etc...............stixitin

 

[charlosian]

dont use what you've learned from anime.

 

[Denamic]

Actually, do use it.
It'll be amusing at least.
Unless you've got common sense.

 

[Skyraida]

It's really a bad idea to use words learned from anime. Unless you can pick up important words and phrases it's basically useless.

 

[japonaliya]

Since I am on my laptop and don't have it bookmarked, I know of a fantastic site called something like Survival Japanese 101. (try googling Japanese 101 or survival Japanese.
It has free audio lessons which are very user friendly discussions with a American and some Japanese born speakers. It is also quite funny at times, and really cool....
Let me tell you, esp. if you are going to Japan..you can become fluent in basic Japanese in about a week (if you really take it seriously) It covers all the reg. situations that as a visitor to Japan, you will need. It is broken up into theme groups and from basic to intermediate.

Try it, you will never know how you did without it.

 

[shujin]

...Let me tell you, esp. if you are going to Japan..you can become fluent in basic Japanese in about a week (if you really take it seriously) ...

I'm sure you're exaggerating on purpose. Even if you didn't sleep for that whole week, you couldn't become fluent.

I think, based on my experience and those of my classmates, with hard work you can become CONVERSATIONAL in a year, two if you slack a "little". The main problem with being "fluent" in Japanese is that because its such a contextual language, the cut-off for fluent is hard to determine.

I've been here in Tokyo for almost three years. My first year I studied "intensively" at my university. The following year, more relaxedly.
Now my practice just comes from spending time with friends/colleagues and watching TV and reading. But even after all this time I still make mistakes and I don't like to call myself fluent, though my Japanese friends generally say I am.
:shy:

As far as the whole "Should you use anime words in regular conversation" debate. I would say if its an anime you wouldn't be embarrassed to be caught watching by your Religious Leader/Significant Other/Parent/Local Law Enforcement Officer, then you're probably ok...

 

[Denamic]

Using anime to learn is fine.
It's the same as using the TV and internet to learn english, which is what I did.
Think it worked out alright, considering my vocabulary and grammar is superior to many native english speakers.

 

[japonaliya]

Well it depends on what you mean by "conversational".

What I meant is that you could be fluent in basic Japanese, enough to handle most simple situations like ordering from a menu, asking where the train is, basic 1st year 101 Japanese. BUT..yes you CAN lean this in a couple of days with this site!!!
By the way, here is the site..and you can dl lessons on your ipod too.

http://www.japanesepod101.com/

This, after taking 2 years of college Japanese, numerous cd-roms like Rosetta Stone. Power Japanese, being in Japan, and of course learning any chance I get...is the best simple course I know of. Besides the survival lessons, they also have free regular lesson on the same page.

Try it out and comment.