Former U15 idols who now do hardcore?

[guy]

Originally Posted by Tenchu_

It wasn't so long ago in Japan where it wasn't illegal to make porn when underaged.

I suppose you know Chiaki Kuriyama? Girl from Azumi 2, Go-Go from Kill Bill. Bigger actor in Japan. She posed topless when she was about 13 in her photo book, I remember.

That's a completely different topic. This thread is refering to girls who did non-nude modeling when they were under 18, but who have now (after becoming 18) turned to adult entertainment. Legality is not a question in this scenario, OP is simply polling for information and possibly opening the discussion to speculation.

Your question is different, because you're talking about nude modeling while the girl is under 18. Please also be careful when you say "it wasn't illegal to make porn when underaged". While I would argue that at least some portion of the pre-1999 JI content was produced under the premise of "artistic" purposes, there should be no question that a girl who has agreed to her nude photography and who is under the supervision of a large crew is completely different than a girl who is physically sexually abused. Western moralists would have everyone believe that the former is as bad as the latter by conveniently lumping them together under the term "CP". In reality, a nude photobook and a video of sexual abuse couldn't be more different. While the nude JI genre was legal pre-1999, that does not mean sexual abuse was legal as well.

[roverandom]

keiko rin have av movie? or uncencored

[Tenchu_]

Originally Posted by guy

That's a completely different topic. This thread is refering to girls who did non-nude modeling when they were under 18, but who have now (after becoming 18) turned to adult entertainment. Legality is not a question in this scenario, OP is simply polling for information and possibly opening the discussion to speculation.

Your question is different, because you're talking about nude modeling while the girl is under 18. Please also be careful when you say "it wasn't illegal to make porn when underaged". While I would argue that at least some portion of the pre-1999 JI content was produced under the premise of "artistic" purposes, there should be no question that a girl who has agreed to her nude photography and who is under the supervision of a large crew is completely different than a girl who is physically sexually abused. Western moralists would have everyone believe that the former is as bad as the latter by conveniently lumping them together under the term "CP". In reality, a nude photobook and a video of sexual abuse couldn't be more different. While the nude JI genre was legal pre-1999, that does not mean sexual abuse was legal as well.

LOL. WTF? I don't think I'm the one off topic. Just making a comment on something relevant.

Thanks for your huge opinion, though...

[Rollyco]

You said it was legal to make porn with underage girls. That was never the case, unless you consider simple nudity as pornography.

[Tenchu_]

Originally Posted by Rollyco

You said it was legal to make porn with underage girls. That was never the case, unless you consider simple nudity as pornography.

It was legal about 10 years back, yes.

Of course, there is different levels of porn. Soft porn, hard porn. Nudity is soft porn.

Yes, there's a difference between artistic stuff, such as Michael Angelos "David", and stuff that is produced for sexual gratification. I've seen both categories in U-15 idols in Japan.

I have seen nudity of minors in Japan designed solely to arouse men. I've seen it also in a photobook which people call "art". Yet I'd say it's uncalled for, regardless.

I don't know who Chiaki Kuriyamas photographer was. Yet he wasn't a very good artist. Though I didn't feel the pictures were intended really to arouse people, either.

At the same time, that's not always the case.

Even now, in Japan, it's not illegal to posses child porn, only to distribute and create it.

So, pretty much, so long as you don't know where it came from, and didn't show anyone else, it's legal still.

Of course, it's the same law that you say is to protect "art" that is used to protect porn.

[Tenchu_]

Besides. What do you suppose the OP wants to see pics specifically of a former U-15 idol naked for?

[Rollyco]

Originally Posted by Tenchu_

Even now, in Japan, it's not illegal to posses child porn, only to distribute and create it.

As far as I know, you're wrong. It is not legal to possess videos that were also illegal before passage of the 1999 law. In other words, videos of (simply) naked underaged children are OK. Videos of children engaging in explicitely sexual behaviors (masturbation, blowjobs, etc...) are not legal to possess. Nor were they before 1999.

(Someone'll have to fact check me on that)

[Tenchu_]

Originally Posted by Rollyco

As far as I know, you're wrong. It is not legal to possess videos that were also illegal before passage of the 1999 law. In other words, videos of (simply) naked underaged children are OK. Videos of children engaging in explicitely sexual behaviors (masturbation, blowjobs, etc...) are not legal to possess. Nor were they before 1999.

(Someone'll have to fact check me on that)

I didn't say anything about masturbation and so on. I'm still talking about nudity. It is still not illegal to posses such things, only to create or distribute.

There was never any definition as to what style of nudity is allowed. I've seen western artists take photos of topless girls for the purpose of art. Of course, this is largely different than getting a girl to bend fully over and taking a photo. Provocative poses are delving into exploitation when they're too young; that's why it got banned to do it. To actively exploit or form a market around the exploitation.

But, unlike other countries, in Japan, once the crime has done, it's not illegal to keep the goods... funny...

So you don't consider getting a ten year old to bend over naked for a photo exploitation or even just wrong, regardless no one physically touches her?

[guy]

Originally Posted by Tenchu_

Besides. What do you suppose the OP wants to see pics specifically of a former U-15 idol naked for?

I have an idea: in order to discuss the credibility of the so-called link between U-15 modeling and AV. If, for instance, it were established that a great number of U15 girls were in fact being pressured to move into nude modeling or AV after turning 18 (eg: a cheap way to channel girls into AV), then there would be incredible incentive from all sorts of groups, including many members here at AO, to put a stop to such a practice.

The question as to whether pre-1999 nude modeling is "wrong" (vis-a-vis moralist argument) or the same as "pornography" (by unclear definitions/interpretations of legal terms) is still open for discussion, but it is a separate debate -- and one that has been discussed dozens of times in other threads, which I encourage you as a new member to look at.

While it is true that Japan has not enacted a strict ban on possession (which in itself is another separate debate), production and distribution is illegal, which you ought to interpret as a measure against "exploitation". Or in other words, we can't change any exploitation that has already happened in the past, but the revised law is in place in order to prevent further exploitation.



I would like to briefly put forth a counter argument, however -- and if you only read one thing thoroughly, let it be this:

Just becacuse "nude U15 photography" is now illegal doesn't mean "clothed U15 models" aren't exploited. And vice-versa: just because girls were nude in pre-1999 content does not mean that every single one was subject to (unconscious) exploitation. Simply put, nudity is not the sole factor in determining whether exploitation is at play.



Lest the discussion get too serious, allow me to press fast-forward:

Next thing, someone will say that nudity is immoral, the work of satan, that we should all return to good Christian values, elect another social conservative Republican leader for the "free world", that people should go to church to learn "right" from "wrong", the government should regulate what material we can and can't see for the sake of society, etc. And some poor chap will be sent to death row for taking pictures of his children playing in the back yard naked, nevermind the fact that you don't have to "get" a child to "bend over naked" because they do that anyway, those damned free-spirited uncivilized kids. Hitler, the commies, ad nauseum.

By the way, I was just curious about where you saw "a ten year old [bending] over naked for a photo". I'm no expert on pre-1999 content, but with what I've seen it is far more reserved even with nudity considered, than the T-back, low-angled close-up gratuitous shots that have worked their way into the current clothed JI content. With that as a benchmark, it would seem to me the true culprit of this is mainstream pop culture image of beautiful, spoiled party girls (and the resulting phenomenon of every single schoolgirl wanting to emulate those "role models"), not some tired legalese in a law book somewhere which self-proclaimed vigilantes use for their ammunition on online forums because for some reason it's really going to make a difference.

*cough*

[Tenchu_]

Guy, you're a bit of a tight muther-fu**er, but you got some good points, and I like you.

My original thought about this thread and why I posted here, is something that is not entirly illegal, just struck me as a bit funny; most girls look rarely a day different at age 15 and age 18. Putting a picture of a naked 18 year old next to a pic of the same girl 3 years back is for one single obvious purpose, yet it's not illegal, just funny.

The pictures I saw that lacked tact of a young girl in a bath tub bending over naked, yet mostly covered in soap foam, were on a site I think lemonpop.f-adult or something? I can't remember the exact name, and they constantly change URLs and site names, and it was a few years back. After moving to Thailand, a lot of sites are firewalled by the government. Not that I even look at child porn, but just regular gravure idol sites (which is what I was doing looking for idol pics where I found those other ones) are found to be blocked here. Like, Imouto.tv for example, I cannot see it.

Anyway, it wouldn't be tough to find a child that voluntarily likes to pose naked for things, and you could make some "art" with it without hurting them one bit at the time. Yet at ages below about 16 - 20 you're too much a pure idiot to know what's best for you, and what you should and should not do. Such girls could later grow to regret doing such things, especially if their career turns huge, like Ayumi Hamasaki did. It is out of respect for their possible future self that I'd never support nude pics, forced or not.